mk1 escort, pinto engine big ponies, little oil pressure

[SimonG]

G'day all,
some interesting thoughts so far.
almost there in sump removal. since everything is new to the front end (grp4 rose jointed, rough ride coming up) there was no issue dropping the x member and steering rack. How ever i didn't realise the rs alloy sumps still reatained the 2x bolt fixings that are hidden in the bell housing. i would have thought the alloy sump would be ridged enough to seal with out the 2x fixings.
i will drop the box tonight. its easier that removing the cooling system and removing all the plumbing to engine.
Has any one ever left the 2x rear bolt fixings out for ease of removal sump ?? on a ALLOY sump. I wouldn't do it on a steel pan.
My plan is to check the pump, as i believe it is a Burton job and after a club run yesterday a couple of members said any thing burtons is a worry and they have had simular issues with pumps from them.
As it did have oil pressure for awhile when first started in the car, I will be looking for the simple things.
Restricted pick up, loose pick up that my be to close to the pan.
Pressure relief as this may have become stuck in position, oil pump faults.
A few people have said the Hi flow and Hi flow/ vol pumps can cause more greif than good and that the standard pump is fine for this type of engine. over oil supply to the top end and only 2x small return drains to the head.
i will do a few test again via the oil pump drive and sump simply reinstalled with cork gasket. i have another way of spinning up 5000 to 6000 revs to simulate the engine revs.
If this fails the engine is out and full strip down to find the cause, after some advise from other parties. The engine builder has an interesting reputation, some great reviews from racing side of things and some bad. I just hoping i didn't pay for the bad, fingers crossed.
As for some questions it is not a stroker, but a US "oval" spec motor.
And yes I agree it will not last long with crap oil pressure, hence why I am checking all avenues.
Any one going to the Small Ford and Capri day at Ettamogah pub at Rouse Hill this coming Saturday?

Thanks Sim

[gen mk 1rs2000]

use a "mellings" pump
i can take pics of a spare i have if you like

[jsa]

The billet pump is taller at the perimeter compared to the cast pump. Not all sump pans accept the billet pump height.

[SimonG]

Thanks for the offer regarding the millings pump.

Its been too cold to be in the shed to complete the removal.
How ever I did order a new pump just in case, and as a spare from 'xpower engines in essex's'
"new ford cosworth escort small turbo t25/ pinto oil pump high pressure pump".
Price was good and the product looked good.
Time will tell.
There is a recess formed in the RS alloy sump that looks suitable for a taller style of pump.

Any thoughts regarding the 2x sump bolts which are located behind the bell housing??
@#$% of an idea to have to either remove engine or gear box for 2x samll bolts
Will be in the shed tonight, gas heater on.....

Thanks
Simon

[Neville Bertwistle]

Hi Simon,

I'm a little confused about your dilema of the two bolts at the back of the sump. There are two either side of the rear main cap that screw up from underneath (the same as all the sump bolts) for which you will need a long allen key or T-bar to get to (assuming they are allen key bolts which they should be). But it's definately accessible with the bellhousing on. Are you using the alloy bellhousing to go with the alloy sump? From memory there are none of the M6 sump bolts on the bellhousing side of the engine.

And yes you need them to apply pressure against that rear seal or you risk the problem of oil leakage.

BTW, your bigger pump will fit fine with an alloy sump. I'm running the Mellings pump with one and its all good.

[SportsSedanSteve]

I'm not sore if he is referring to those two or the two bolts between the bellhousing and the sump at the lowest side.
Simon, make sure you remove these two first as any load on them will strip the alloy threads easily

[teeg]

I had a similar problem with mine and it turned out to be a crack in the pick up. Sort of explained why I would get decent pressure facing downhill on our sloping driveway. I have also heard of another case where the bolts to the pickup became loose. All the best with it.

[SimonG]

Big thanks with the sump style, didn't even take any notice about the 'formed areas' in the rs sump for the bolt removals.
When its all assembled and looking up side down I was silly enough to miss it.
I will take care with it possibly stripping when removing.

I have ordered a 'cometic' sump gasket/ seal set that is for all cossie stuff with correct coloured 1/2 moon seals, any reviews on these?

This is why we ask questions, even if they sound a little silly. Its so easy to get caught up in the 'drama' and easy to miss the simple stuff

I am into it tonight.

Thanks again,

[SimonG]

Hey all

sump is off,
pump is a mellings hi vol, pulled apart and there appears to be nothing wrong other than i think a few premature wear marks. minor scores, maybe from settling in.
there is some small fines in the bottom of the sump??? what would be expected from a newly built motor/ power dyno run in?

any tips? on clearances for the pump set up when reassembling.
and what is the ideal clearance from bottom of sump pan ( rs alloy with improved baffle) to the under side of pick up?
my measures the following - bottom of block to bottom of pick up 137mm, top edge of sump to bottom face of sump 157mm, so there is a gap difference of 20mm.


thanks

simon

[Roger Miller]

Well ?

[SimonG]

Yes, all back together and no result in my favour.
Every thing seemed to be OK, oil flow to the head is good etc, simply not a positive result on the gauage.

So after final talks with engine builder, it was out in a couple of hours and on a truck back to be stripped down to find out why.

Shall wait and see?? I should have plasti gauged the mains and big ends for my own piece of mind.

fingers crossed ???

Simon

[SimonG]

Hello all,

Engine has been inspected and all the bearings are shot.
Now considering I had only run for about 5 min to operating temp then noticed the oil pressure drop and shut down, this is not very good.

Is it at all possible to have the hex drive on the oil pump out of its location whilst the distributor is in.
What I am getting at is the following?

I removed the distributator to polish up and re installed. This was before the engine was fitted in the car.
I believe that there would be no way of refitting the dissy if the hex drive was not in it's correct position?


The engine builder is suggesting that it wasn't install correctly, hence no oil pressure and bearings being distroyed.

Any thoughts from you experienced chaps?

[Roger Miller]

[Roger Miller]

One thing Ive seen before is the ring not fitted to pump when a new one is fitted, making things ugly at oil pump/drive area.

[gen mk 1rs2000]

that is a trap for young players roger no locating ring
but even the ring has a gap so it still relies upon the gasket ????

i cant see the hex drive ever giving probs
i have seen some high mileage ones with the
hex very worn but never broken or stripped

[SimonG]

yes the loctaing ring could be an issue in some ways, but it is there as required.
there was no material gasket when i removed, but what appeared to be a 'hydrolic fluid lock tite' type of gasket that was firm when removed , e.g. had dried out. when i removed the pump there was no evidence the oil was blowing out from the mating surfaces.

I am simply putting down to bad assembly.
I will have to go and see it being re assembled, just to be there for piece of mind

[gen mk 1rs2000]

have you ever primed the oil pump by removing dizzy
& spinning the pump via extension drive on a drill
conected to the hex drive into the oil pump
before start up
check oil p gauge and with rocker cover off
see if yu get oil out of the cam spray bar

[SimonG]

Hi Steve,
no i had necer done that, unitl this whole sarger began. that's how I was checking to see if my checks/ repairs had been done.
what gets me is that now i know it was the bearings, the whole time i was still getting flow to the cam and spray bar.
from now on, once the engine is fitted, i will always pre prime the engine if it has been sitting after a day or so.

[SimonG]

First off, thank you for the advise and info provided so far.
it will be my turn to give some info, i am sure, once i have learnt enough.
(any questions building wise, i can assist)

engine is back. was dyo'd for run in purposes for about 1hr
good oil pressure (85 psi)
before i re install the engine i am just doing the final checks.
there is metal fillings, small, enough to cover your thumb nail in the run in oil.
is this a normal amount?

[gen mk 1rs2000]

are you using the same oil cooler after the prev blowup??
if so it could be contaminated & very hard to clean properly