Black Beauty

[Pete C]

Hi guys, i'm chasing info/ photos for a gp 4 mcd replica build up.
I have a bit of stuff, but need a lot more(never have enough) to make sure it is as close as possible to the original.
This will be a big budget build so accuracy will be paramount, so any little thing will be greatly appreceated,

cheers pete c

[Roger Miller]

Whats mcd ?

[Roger Miller]

MK1 group 4 ish

[Roger Miller]

MK2 Group 4

[Pete C]

thanks for your help Roger
cheers pete c

[dingo_boy]

Pete,
Are you after pictures of the David Sutton prepared Black Beauty car that Ari Vatanen drove in '82, or just general Group 4 build pictures? I think I may have a few of the original car (I'm sure Roger probably does aswell) and a couple of replica cars (see attached photo, it's a car from Belgium)
Cheers
Justin

[Pete C]

hi Justin, yes i am specifically interested in the car Ari drove in 82, i have an extensive library of escort rally books/photos ,but am lacking in information and photos of this car.
I've been told that it started life as one of the rothmans cars, and also that it was a new built car fo 82.
i'm a bit confused over these two schools of thought.
if you have any tech info on the mechanical spec of the car ,special features etc, this would be appreciated as well.
i still need photos etc to determine colour scheme , which flares, front spoiler etc

cheers pete c

[RS027]

[Stu]

[Miniliteman]

[dingo_boy]

[Pete C]

[Miniliteman]

[graceloc]

Hi there, just new on here,this is a pic of one of our cars, hope this helps.

Gerard OConnell.

[Pete C]

hi gerard, welcome aboard.
thanks for the photo.
everyone has been very helpful and generous with their time and collections of photos and information.
i now have a great library of information and photos of the car and am sure that we can do the original justice with our replica build.
cheers
pete c

[Mark-1]

Hi Everyone

Doing a Google one day recently, I typed in DKP191T, and found this forum and thread. I realise it is over a year old now, but thought I would share some very fond memories with you.
I owned DKP 191T from 1983 until 1986, and have long since very much regretted selling it.
We bought the car direct from David Campion at MCD, later RED.
I remember vividly, being only 23 at the time, going to there premises in Wigan, and looking at DKP resplendent in its MCD red paint. The paint inside the car, and under the bonnet etc was as good as the outside, it was beautifully built.
Ray Skerrit [ I think that’s how you spell it ] took me for a test drive in it, and like most keen young 23 year olds who dreamt of “having a Go” in a full works spec RS1800, I was just a bit excited!
Ray, warmed it up nicely, then stuck 10,000 rpm in all gears up the road,, oh that noise!
Sold!
It had at the time a 2.0L Dave Wild BDG on 8mm Lucas Fuel injection with the metering unit mounted under the inlet trumpets [ which made it a pain to work on, but looked pretty! ], and gave 255BHP.
It was, as I was to find out after a memorable ½ Day in a Welsh forest with tuition by John Taylor [ great man ] a “Vatanen” spec BDA, and loved to rev. I remember it did not really pull until you had 6500 rpm on it, then it would sing to 10,000rpm, most of the time 9500rpm was used.
JT thought it was too hot for my skills at the time, but I loved it, and managed to get the most out of it after some practise. The car, should have had a 5.3 ratio in the atlas, to compensate for the engine, but I only found this out after I stopped forest rallying, it was fitted with a 5.1.
DKP191T was all you think it is, FANTASTIC to drive, it really needed wipers on the side windows!
Mind you, you had to “Drive it” aggressively, or else it became a bit unruly, something I enjoyed immensely. On the log book, it said “Escort Popular”, I said to Dave, “why is this”, he said, “well, it’s a popular car” !!
We won several club rallies with it, and then went to my first proper welsh forest event in 1983, the “Newtown” stages. Being young, and somewhat arrogant [ it helps to be competitive! ] I thought I should win this event, as I presumed, I had the best car there.
Great rally, Fab stages, at the last stage, we were 2nd, 30 secs behind local boy Richard Gough, and I stupidly thought I could still win.
1 mile from the end, I dumped DKP 191T into some tress, and bananered the Shell,, ouch! It was an expensive lesson.
I re-shelled the Car, using a new Gartrac body, and so got to build DKP 191T from scratch, which was very enjoyable. Our first outing after the re shell, was a win, on a tarmac event, after I had acquired some Tension strut Tarmac suspension, which made the handling a lot better on slicks! I remember Colin Short was course car in STW 201R ??, and was determine to beat us, after we had beaten him in December 1983 to win a Forest event around the Aldershot area, but Colin, was on Forest suspension, and “knobblies! So did not stand a chance.
In 1984, with John Taylor’s guidance, we entered the BTRDA Rally championship, with the late Roger Freeman as my co driver. Roger was, a Terrific bloke, VERY funny, a real pleasure to work with, and a BIG calming influence on my driving.
JT, wanted me to sell DKP, an join Mark Lovell, and buy a Rally XR3 and have a go in the junior British Rally Team, but, as you can understand, the thought of driving a “Orible” front wheel drive car, rather than DKP, was not attractive!
It was VERY sad when Roger and Mark were killed in a Rally a few years ago.
First event in 1984 in DKP was the Wydean, fairly un eventful, and we finished 11th.
Next event, the Dukeries, I really got into my stride, and was lying 4th [ Great stages, fast and flowing ], when the metering unit decide to go onto Full rich, and we run out of fuel about ¼ mile from the end of a stage. Fortunately, a marshal had a 1 gall petrol tin, which we “acquired”! and got on our way, we did loose nearly a minute I think though! Roger worked out, that the BDA was averaging 1.5mpg, instead of 5 !!
We finished 8th, but the engine, being bore washed by the excessive fuel, was feeling sluggish.
The Engine went back to Dave wild [ funny how these engine builders never do anything wrong!! ], and the Car failed to turn up for the next event in Wales, which I cant remember what it was called.
Roger managed to borrow a Mk2, Group 4 shell, but with a Pinto engine, which I think had about 150bhp on a good day.
Great fun down hill, but seriously, we had to change down going up hill! We got up to 9th, but then I popped it onto its side, on one of those common tightening Welsh corners, running out of revs, if I had been in DKP, it would not have happened!
Roger and I got to the end of the stage, in fits of laughter [ you had to be there ] but we thought it wise to stop, before a really “ big one” happened, as it was not my car.
I had to wait 3 months for the next event, the Seven valley Forest stages, at this level though, unless your out in the “woods” at least once a month, you loose some of the feel, and it takes time to get back on the pace.
Again, we were 8th, posting top 3 times in the last few stages.
Roger co drove for Phil Collins in the Autosport series, so we decided to have a go at the Peter Russek Rally in south Wales, with my friend Geoff Skillen as co driver.
We were seeded 32, and bless him, Geoff picked up a incorrect time card, so we ended up running in the 60’s, the roads not being so kind!
We had a good run, again posting some top 3 times, and yet again, finished 8th. David Llwellyn [ I think that’s how you spell it ] won the event, just under 1 min in front of us, again in a Peter Green?? Mk 2, with a 2.2 BDG and 5.3 diff, which as I said earlier, would of helped DKP especially on some of the tight uphill hairpins, constant dipping the clutch required to keep the engine singing.
Basically, we ran out of money to do any more forest events, to be competitive, you needed to change the back tyres after every 15 stage miles, so it was easy to use 10 tyres [ 2 x front as well ]on one national event, not to mention all the fuel etc etc.
I did a couple of club events, winning them fairly easily, and found myself in between levels. There is nothing like a good fight on stage times to keep you keen, so for 1985, along with a friend of mine, we decided to go Thundersalloon racing, with a Terry Hoyle Turbo charged BDX in DKP 191T With a Monster X pack type Gartrac bodywork extensions, it looked well mean!
Any way, that’s another story, I am sorry if I have bored you with my recollections, if you want to know what happened in 1985 and 1986, do ask, and I will write some more.
All my scrap book cuttings, records,, etc, were” lost” some time ago, so I have to use my memory!

Cheers
Mark Spencer

[dingo_boy]

That's a great read Mark, please tell us some more about the later years with the car. Would you happen to have any piccies you could share with us?

Cheers

Justin

[Mark-1]

Hi Justin

Thanks for the interest. I only have a few Non digital photo’s, but, I have taken pics of them, and will try and post them up here later.
In 1985, the body shell went to Gartrac, for them to alter the wheel arches, to accommodate 12” wide rears, and 10” fronts. I sold the Dave Wild BDG to Charles Eveson [ nice bloke ] and my mate who was to share the driving with me [ Thundersalloons was for 2 drivers / race ] bought the Turbocharged BDX from Terry Holye.
I put it all together, fitting the engine with its huge KKK turbo [ from a 935 Porsche!! ] was tight, but we got it all in. Initially, it was to run on fuel injection, being taken from the then as new RS 200.
However, Terry, could not get the engine to get on boost with the fuel injection, basically, he was shooting in the dark. We then gave up the fuel injection, and put it on 2 x 48 Dellorto’s as used by Lotus for the Turbo Elite.
After a lot of messing about, I vividly remember the first time the engine came on boost, this was at Snetterton, but not on the race track!
It was up to 5000rpm, a lot of splutter splutter pop pop, then wallop 400 + BHP arrived,,, fun!
My mate, could not get on with it, I think it “worried “him a bit, the power delivery was a bit fierce, but as it was in such a great chassis, it coped well.
We did one race like this, at Snetterton, I started from 12th, was up to 3rd after 2 laps, then the engine got sooooo hot, I had to come in, the turbo, was White!
My mate wanted out after this, so we bought the engine from him, and decided to go back to rallying.
I put DKP 191T back to “road” legal spec [ don’t ask about the MOT !! ] and for the rest of 1985, that was that. I drove, on the road DKP to a friend who had a rolling road, who was superb with Carburettors.
He took one look at the Engine, and Said “F—k that, I am not destroying my rolling road” so we spent ½ Day going up the A272 changing Jets, and eventually managed to get it not to overheat, and be reasonably tame,, just!
In 1986, I entered the South of England Tarmac Rally championship [ which we eventually won ], first event at a freezing cold Goodwood in February. When we turned up with the Car, most thought it a joke, especially as we could not get it started, eventfully dragging it up the main road, I managed to bump it into life.
First stage, about 6 miles, we were 54 seconds faster than anything else, and won by 2 ½ mins, we were taken seriously after that!
Basically we won all the events we finished, apart from one when a fuel pump failed, and another when we broke a ½ shaft. It was much faster then anything else, so to be honest the fun sort of went away.
One event I remember, we had 11 punctures, and were lying second going into the last stage by 22 seconds. The heavens opened, and there was standing water everywhere, terrible conditions. I borrowed some 6” Forestry wheels and tyres, and put them on [ it looked well silly! ] and took 24 secs out of the leader to win on the last stage. DKP might have had a vicious engine with 400BHP, but it still handled beautifully.
I sold DKP 191T later that year, to I think a David Ward, and Tony Dickenson, who were going to go back to Thundersalloons with it.
They put Fuel injection on it, 15 wheels, bigger brakes etc, spent a lot of money, but could not match the lap times.
They then let Gerry Marshall drive it at a test at Silverstone, who blew the engine to pieces!
It had a N/A BDX put in, and they carried on racing it.

Last I heard, the body shell was in a lock up in the London area, and some rough old Mk 2 road car was driving around with DKP 191T reg plate on, that was in around 1988 I think.

Hope you enjoyed my little trip down memory lane.

Cheers
Mark.

[Miniliteman]

Hello Mark,

excellent read!

Greetings from the Netherlands, Leon.

[Mark-1]

As promised, some pics of DKP 191T when i owned it.


This was after i reshelled it, on its first outing, which we won! [ typical Escort stance! ]

This one in December 1983 with the original shell, on a forest event which we also won! [ Great Car]

And this selection in 1986, after we put the Turbo BDX in, and widened it somewhat! Bear in mind, this was done for Circuit racing, so yes, it was a bit over the top for Rallying, but huge fun.
My biggest regret is that we never came up against any 6R4'2, i rekon we could of given them a good run for there money!

Cheers
Mark.