Who would like to see a Group Nd class?

[Neville Bertwistle]

Been watching this one and suppose it's time I put my in.

There is no valid reason to go and create another official racing category. There is virtually a category already within the CAMS structure to cater for any car. If you really want to build a Brock replica, go Improved Production and race it there as Paul T suggested.

[johnw]

Gotta agree with you Neville, Improved Production offers something for virtually everyone. While it is true that there are some competitors in IP who are lucky enough to have a fair wack of spare cash to pump into their cars, there is still an awfull lot of us who do it on a fairly modest budget. By far my greatest cost is the travel from Townsville to the South East corner to race. The QIPRA has a real mix of old and relatively new vehicles and there is always someone to race even if it's not at the front of the field. I take an interest in the Group N cars and they too seem to have a mix of budgets which is revealed on the track. In this fairly tight financial times all categories are struggling for full grids and the creation of yet another category won't help this at all.

[Danny M]

I've sat and watched this one and it's given me a giggle as BR Nev you've missed the point!
The reason guys want to build an ND era car is to actually race it!
As it wont take away from Grp C/A as they will actually race, as due to the fact that people are now paying stupid amounts for most often quite basic cars they have something thats too valuable to really race. As I know when ever I go to a Historic meeting I wander around and look at the cars in the pits catch up with friends as I know whats happening on the track will put me to sleep.
Yes the average punter/spectator wants to see the original cars out there but they still go along to see some of those type cars really racing which is why Group NC has proved so popular. This would prove even more so if the class was extended to say the end of 1976 and would be a boost for guys fronting up with 2lt Escorts, Gemini's, Truimph's etc as well as Torana's and Falcon's as NC is getting too expensive with guys spending ballistic amounts on Holden 202's and BDA's where as you can build a tough 308, Cleveland or pinto and go out and have a red hot go at it.
Keep the slicks and spherical joints etc with the Grp C/A and keep the ND car on tyres along the lines of NC where the tyres are limited to a treaded so you wont have the same visaul appeal and the car will move around and provide a spectacle.
All up it can only be a benefit as Improved production is slowly dying as it's gotten to the point where unless you've got a good RX7 or spent ballistic amounts on a late model car you're not going to be competitive and that turns people away from wanting to join in as guys want to be able to screw something together with a few mates helping and be somewhat competitve. As how many people over the years have given up and gone onto other sports as peoples own sense of competition can handle coming in at the back of the field for so long.


Danny

[Big Rev Nev]

Hi Danny,
Its disapointing to hear that Historic racing puts you to sleep, I can understand some of the categories can be challenging but I hope the Group A/C racing keeps you comming back at least.

Right now there are a number of categories that you can race any of the cars you have listed in 3rd category, I do understand that Biante TCM is very expensive; buying a franchise, entry fees, traveling nationally, building a car and repairing the event by event panel damage. But you can put sponsors n the car and there is TV coverage.

IP gives you what you want and you can put your own sponsorship on the car to subsidise the costs. You get TV coverage and if the car is heavily damaged you can just build another one...
The makes and models you mentioned would bring new life to IP if it got a foot hold, maybe the IP organisers would create a class within the category/

There is still good old club sprints, I still think they offer the best bang for buck. I've done a few Winton 6hr races (even won one) with a stock road registered 1974 4cly POS. It was great fun, took real concentration and the team aspect was very enjoyable.

I also beleive anyone can put a submission to CAMS for a new 3rd category class to be created but it costs big $ and takes allot of time and lobbying.

I'm still not convinced that Nd is a good idea yet, but keep the discussion going I'm happy to have my mind changed....

Thanks,
Nev.

[crusey]

I'm not sure that IP is dying. At Island Magic in November 09 there were 100 entries for the nationals. I also don't agree that you need an RX7 or ballistic amounts of cash. A turbo 808 held the Winton/Sandown lap record until this year and was/is for sale for low to mid thirties. And as i've said before Danny I think your car could be an outright U2L car...

I just don't see the reason for group ND. People will still out spend you. The only car that we are really talking about coming in (on this forum anyway) is the Mk1 RS2000 and I predict the NC cars would still beat them...

[Danny M]

Michael compared to what it was IP is dying there was a time you had to qualify to get on the grid at most state rounds!
as far as my shitbox if I was personally up to speed which I'm not should be an outright U2L car but then again most couldn't give a @#$% about where they came un the unders they only gauge where they came outright as the white car came outright the last couple of times it got raced (but admittedly with a big gearbox repair bill afterwards) but now with later model cars coming on and the ongoing RX7-8 debate most guys are getting the shits and are looking for a more basic class for less high tech cars and also yes an RS2000 MK1 would be well and truly on the cards and I think you'll find a decent pinto will give the 1600BDA's a fright for a lot less to the point you could turn up at a race meeting with a complete spare engine in the back of the ute

Danny

[gen mk 1rs2000]

i have got to agree with the comments about the mk 1 rs2000 being the car to beat !!

[Gary P.]

[johnw]

I think that IP is along way off being described as dying, grid numbers are certainly down, here in Qld anyway, but so are all the other categories. A fair bit of this could possibly be attributed to the Cams/AASA saga with QR & Lakeside running fairly free for all tin top categories. This is probably a good case for not haveing to many categories with close to the same type of car. I beleive IP gives the escort racer the opportunity to beef up and improve some of the fragile areas of the original car, this in turn keeps costs down as breakages and costly failures are greatly reduced. This is the reason that the Biante/TCM series moved away from NC. If people are super competitive enough they will turn even a simple game of marbles into a spendathon. As for the rotaries being totally dominant, can't speak for other states, but here in qld a Datsun 1200 coupe was 2009 State Champion and probably would have been again this year if he had of competed. Hot on his heels was a YB powered Mk1. My very low budget Pinto powered Mk1 was second in the U2L class mainly by virtue of finishing every race I competed in, i was beaten by a early model Toyota Corolla. The upcoming Bathurst 12 hour has a full grid of 55 IP cars with quite a number more in reserve. Ip is alive and well

[Danny M]

John reaulrs in Qld aren't a good indication as alot of front running guys don't do the championship because htey couldn't be f#$%ed going to Morgan Park every meeting and as far as numbers go you missed some great events 10 years ago when you would get the same numbers as Bathurst to a touring car round and then watch some guys packing up after qualifying!
The fact is the days of a carburetted car being competitive are well and truly over and to be competitve you will have to have a decent gearbox, $7500+ for shocks, big brakes etc etc etc

Danny

[SportsSedanSteve]

From my perspective, thats the point of "Improved Production" cars and all those improvements are going to cost time and $$$$$. Also, unfortunately, your probably right about the carby/injection parity. Maybe the class could be further split between carburreted cars and EFI run engines, or a multiplier factor the same as forced induction. But I guess were not talking parity between cars in one class either....

[Paul T]

An RS2000 is not going to be an outright contender in Nc if it could run, nor would it be if Nd was born so if you really want run an RS2000 run it in IP in what ever state of tune or development you want or can afford.

[Blunny1]

Good to see some different points coming up about the classes.

So why dont we just massage the Nc rules and let RS2000's in?

IPRA doesnt appeal to me because of the massive differences in cars, late, early, turbo etc etc. I dont even really like the "look" of the field, lets be honest, most of the field is ugly & rough ( I will hide now) compared to the Nc cars.
IPRA is great fun to watch as old poo boxes whip mega dollar cars and the great levels of ingenuity in engineering in the field have to be applauded.
But I still dont like the idea of a bloke in a Mondeo giving me a shunt when in the back of his mind he can get parts in 18 minutes from the wreckers up the road

RS2000s in Nc I say.
Get building Danny, there are some BDAs to race!!!

[Danny M]

[John Hadden]

Hi Danny Merry Xmas and all the other stuff have you ever owned a BDA/G?



John

[Danny M]

[Momus]

[fpv_escort1]

To be honest, I was all for running Mk1 RS2000's in group nc but now i'm completely against it. That may because I'm building a 1300 up but still.

I think once you let a mk1 rs2000 run, then you would get people wanting to run the v8 chargers, xu2 torana's etc.

I think the class should be left how it is, who cares if the rotaries are dominating, that should be more motivation to improve your car and kick their Arses!!

Racing is always expensive, no matter what level, I karted last year and it cost more than running my club car. If you want to race, prepare to spend up big

[John Hadden]

So how dose every body view a C of D car that has alot more gear that it ran in the period
will the NC boys welcome such a car? and should they? now to those pesky hovers they didn't win in the period as they are now rx2s and so on it appears that they have got that bit wrong.
This hypothetical C of D car should not be put into a different class or should it? it is likely it would be very competitive CAMS say we should restore these cars back to a day/ meeting
and that they should be as close to that state as possible so if you had such a car would it
it then be worth restoring it in that way knowing it would cost a great deal of money
and you may then be howled down by NC competitors even pushed into a class with 2 or three cars the real thing is the real thing

John

[Danny M]

I think I know where you going with this and I'm all for an original car from the period to run as it was run and if anyone complains they should get over it
As far as Marcus' tilt yeah Steve's car was no slouch but it wasn't that quick but would have been good at winton especially the old layout but that is part of the problem where that spec car would now be a back marker and a good carburetted car will get no where in IP today where as a carburetted car with period components would make for a good basis for an ND class and yes unfortunately it would allow in RX3's but if you kept out RX7's you would still be in with a show if it was carburetted etc as the speed would be similar to an RX2. AS far as a Duratec goes no they wouldn't be fast enough as a 300hp YDX would plonk you straight against an RX7 and an RX8 and wouldn't have enough poke! A YB with a 2.5-2.65lt alloy blocked YB might be more of a show as at least you can rev the thing


Danny