Synchro to Dog - T9

[MK1_Oz]

Having done damage to 3rd and 4th at this year's Classic Adelaide tarmac rally, I think I am going to convert to a dog box. I have never been happy with the quality of the shift with the synchro box and having lost some time with gearbox selection issues its time for a change.

When changing from synchro to dog I assume I need a complete new gearset and that I cannot change a few existing components to make it a dog arrangement?

[Danny M]

What damage have you done?
To go from synchro to dog you need to replace everything internally as the standard selectors are not up to the task and the hubs are all different but having said that dog is a lot better again on gear changes but you need to be spot on with your heel and toe'ing as you will get a real surprise how much the synchro's were actually doing to help your changes
Next point is you really need to change the whole box as the Quaife dog boxes are not ideal

[MK1_Oz]

At idle the box has a death rattle....LOUD!

Very hard to get into 3rd.

Going into 3rd and 4th (up and down shift) the gears are grinding.

Massive vibration in the car which I assume is box related.

What box/internals would you recommend??

I am investigating going Duratec (probably a dream due to cost) as I believe the regs have recently been changed. If I do that then the current box will not be rated high enough anyway.

[Danny M]

Is it a 4 or 5 speed box as you've probably broken a synchro and or the hubs flopping around
Is the vibration speed related or rev related
As you wont have enough grunt to kill a Ford box but a proper Duratec should kill a Quaife box.
I would only look at a Tran X SL72 or a Holinger HZF in dog boxes and would not go near any Quaife dog boxes due tho their design

[MK1_Oz]

T9 5 speed. Vibration is speed related although goes when foot is on clutch. I suspect it is something in the input shaft as it also makes a racket when idling with foot off clutch.

Will look into those other boxes although I believe Quaife took over Tran-x so they may only have one product now?

[Danny M]

There is an SL72 listed on the website but I'd be asking the question if they'd redesigned or changed the gearset and if so I wouldn't touch it

Actually thinking about your box when was the last time you put new bearings through it?

[MK1_Oz]

Will ask.

My box was built by Eurospeed 4 events ago. It has done say 2600km transport and 760km competitive only. It was inspected before the 3rd event and all looked fine. Def sounds like at least one of the bearings is shagged.

I will have to rebuild this one as a synchro then either look to buy a new dog box or get a dog kit fitted to my old spare standard T9.

[PaulMK1]

I have checked the CAMS manual and there is nothing about allowing a Duratec in an escort - still just lists the NA YB.

But under the club rally car regs you can substitute but not sure if that class is supported in Tarmac:
http://docs.cams.com.au/Manual/Rally/RR ... 2016-1.pdf

[MK1_Oz]

That is what I read too. I think the Duratec was allowed under the Targa technical regs which does not align with CAMS in some areas. Waiting to hear back from CAMS technical. Not sure that I would want to build a Duratec if it doesn't comply although all the tarmac rallies would allow it due to their non-compliant regs.

Palmside currently charge NZD$6,500 for a dog T9!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Gulp.....

[what?]

Check out raceline in the uk for dog boxes.
They seem to have the best prices.
They supply quaife spc and bgh t9 aswell as the quaife 68g.

[MK1_Oz]

Danny, what is it about the Quaife dogboxes do you not like? Know a couple of people using them (even behind a Duratec) without issue. Also, what about the Quaife 57G

https://shop.quaife.co.uk/57g-5-speed-r ... ng-gearbox

I like the idea of the higher power rating for only a little more cash. I think the Tran-x box is rated higher than the Quaife T9 and may be sufficient.

[Clayton]

Sounds like the blocker bars are broken in the 3rd-4th hub. They are pressed hardened steel blocks that break the end off and don't allow the synchro to engage before slider meshes. It usually stretches the slots in the hub as well... Ended up make some billet ones and that never happened again.
Then all that junk goes through the bearings...

My 2 cents worth

Clayton

[Danny M]

Ok where to start.

Clayton in Glenn's case it won't be the blocker bars as he has the vibration issue that goes with it which is input shaft bearing failing as well as the spigot bearing that connects the input and output shafts, also starts to fail so the synchro's will not behave and make it harder to shifts gears and start vibrating out the main shaft. Secondly when you use the solid blocker bars if you have a tuff engine they literally spray the bars out especially when in 3rd gear and take the synchro out with it locking the box in 3rd. The original bars are more reliable because they are lighter and don't get flung out as quickly

Paul going by that bulletin you should be able to use a Duratec

Glenn the Quaife boxes use a male and female dog with a sharp angle on the male dog and on the T9 based boxes 4th gear only has 3 dogs, then on the female slots the shoulder is not the same angle but almost 90 degrees. So the male dogs literally drive on the tips! and as soon as the tips get a touch warn and round they'd smash their way out. When I ran the Quaife dog box I could never even finish a race meeting without losing 4th. It got to the point I stopped entering. At Qld Raceway I would come down the front straight in 4th gear lift off for turn one and then stand on the throttle again and it would smash it's way of 4th and would never stay in again and that was on a new pair gears and dogs. I kept chasing Quaife to be told it was driver error and I must have missed a gear as no one else was having dramas, I offered to send them all the logging for them to tell me where I missed a gear and they went quiet. They then put me onto this guru in Ireland that was using a YB with 275hp, when I started quizzing the guy he would have been flat out having 230hp as he was using 0.060" less lift, less compression, 2mm smaller valves and 1000 less rev's.
When we stripped the box when I sold it to yes put another 4th gear in it I had to buy another 2nd and 3rd gears as they were eating into each other as they weren't handling the torque of my thing. I've since had to inspect a friends Toyota fwd Quaife dog box as he was having the same issues and yes the same male and female nonsense.
So at the end of it don't bother with a Quaife, see if you can get a Tran X second hand or if you're prepared to go to 4000+ gbp go and look at a Holinger HZF, they're designed to take 430nm of torque and are bullet proof and have a 1 to 1, 5th gear

[MK1_Oz]

Thanks for that Danny. I must be looking in the wrong places as I though the HZF was AUD$10k+

Duratec can definitely be used in Club rallies but that is not what I do. Given the cost of this potential new gearbox I don't think a new engine is possible for a long time now....

Out of interest, what do you think I could sell my existing steel case T9 Quaife HD SC CR Synchro box for???

[Danny M]

The HZF's start at 11 plus GST for the standard box with FIA ratio's and a regular fixed input shaft
Worth the extra expense over the pommy crap
2500-3000 I would have thought for a H/D T9

[wayovermyhead]

Iv'e got the same box as you Glen, but with the Alloy casing. Hasn't had much use so haven't had any big issues yet, although all of a sudden it doesn't want to go into 5th. Feels like something in the linkage rather than a synchro prob but haven't been bothered to take a look yet.
I thought along the same lines as you re changing to dogs but I have come to the conclusion though that there are just too many inherant design floors in these old boxes no matter how you "remake" them. Otherwise I can see this will become another one of those things that you'll have spent 10K by the time your done, and still have a box not half as good as a Hollinger or similar. If I wasn't going to go all out I would get something completely diferent like a toyota box and put a gearset in it (they are such better boxes from the start than any of this old ford stuff!) I'm just going to keep going with mine, with the spare just in case. And then when I can in a year or so just get a real box and be done with it (iv'e spent all my money on targa tas in april, new head and other bits and a new cambered cromoly tubed diff ) . Another possible option is there is a new H Pattern Samsonas around the corner that i have been led to believe should have good depth and back cut on the dogs. and may be a little cheaper than the HZF.

What made you think we can use a Duratec in targas?? I can't find anything.
As they read at the moment, you can do what you want with a head, but not the block. So only option is YB. And as you know, all those bits in the CAMS manual mean nothing in TARGA stuff.

Llew

[MK1_Oz]

I just cannot justify $10k+ for a box but I could stretch to the Quaife 57G which has a good power rating - listening to Danny's input on the poor design although I have not been able to find any others that agree with him. The Quaife T9 is only rated to 250HP and his car is way above that so maybe he is just pushing beyond the boundaries?

There was a Mk2 Duratec running in Classic Adelaide and the owner told me that Targa Australia had finally agreed to let them run in Targa events (CA is run under the Targa Australia tech regs just like Targa Tas). As far as I can tell so far, CAMS is not allowing the Duratec but even though the Targa events are run under CAMS, their specific tech regs allow things that CAMS don't. They are more progressive than CAMS! However, I am yet to see anything in writing from Targa to confirm the situation. Targa tech reg seem to read that all you need is their approval.

[Danny M]

Glenn by the time you've landed that box it will be 10 grand anyway and you're still stuck with a Quaife box. I've had a look around their website and they've dropped all their power ratings but they still rate them in hp which is useless as all decent manufacturers rate them in torque and they don't say how long they will handle said power where Holinger rate theirs in NM's of torque for a 24 hour endurance event. The other issue is you are still stuck with Quaife's dog design and it's still an overdrive box so ratio's are a compromise. The box I last had they rated at 275 and would have been flat out having 250hp in reality and it was a nightmare. As I said you'd be better off buying an old 5speed Tran X SL72
With the Holinger you at least have a box you can resell and get a good return on them as all the Historic rally guys are getting out of their UK made boxes like the Elite etc due to unreliability as I know guys with their 2lt BDG Escort which don't have big power had to take at least one spare pommy box to an event so they could finish and now they don't bother with spares for their Holingers.
So go and buy one but we'll be having this same argument again. You really need to bite the bullet if you want to do it properly

[MK1_Oz]

I hear you. The Quaife 57G isn't available at the moment due to a redesign and they have stopped making the SL72 new anyway. Will do some soul searching. Are bellhousings available for the Holinger or is that another huge expense to get something made?

What box are you using currently Danny?

How much power will an over-rated Holinger suck out of my car though???

$8,800 landed for a 57G.

[Danny M]

Redesign? needs all new gears and decent dogs and ratio's!
I'm using the Holinger HZF with a custom 1st and 2nd ratio's and I had them convert the input shaft to a floating quilled shaft
Power wise yes it may suck one or two more than the T9 but turning it over by hand you can't feel any resistance and I tried measuring it like I do with an engine and even an inch pound Snap On wrench couldn't read it
Who gave you the price of 8800