Roll Cage Mods

[MK1_Oz]

I had Lance Walker build me my roll cage a few months ago. I have since decided that I want to put harness bars in the main hoop rather than rely on the brace he put between the rear turrets. I am also thinking that I want an under dash bar having seen the Porsche crash in last weekends Adelaide Hills Tarmac Rally.

Lance gave me the form to present to CAMS to get my roll cage registered that obviously doesn't show these extra bars.

Question: Could I just add these extra bars myself and maybe adjust his form accordingly? Would I even need to adjust the form? The form is numbered so Lance has a copy. I don't like the idea of just changing the form as that is a little fraudulent and could possibly open him up for liability in the even something goes pear shaped.

Annoyingly he has gone on a 2 month holiday (lucky sod) so I cannot contact him to either ask him the above or to get him to add the bars.

i don't know the first thing about registration of ROPS with CAMS. Once registered can you make changes without telling CAMS or will my log book show the cage configuration? Too late to ring CAMS now too (plus they are useless )

[mickas]

As he has a copy of what he did, If you change your end and get caught its on you.... Is it legally binding?? If so I wouldnt change it dodgyly...
Just my 2c

[MK1_Oz]

i agree. so my only option is for him to do the additions? ie I have to wait for his return :(

[mickas]

yes... unfortunately... patience...

[jpayne]

Now its a while ago, but so are the current regs (2000) but cant we self certify cages, as long as the dimensions and material match that described in the CAMS manual? Schedule J. The log book (safety cage registration) only records the geometry and material of the cage and a record that someone has taken responsibility for the cage. the form is just a drawing and details of the cage.
The Log book will need to be updated in future if there is a cage change or color change or engine change etc.
There are new regs due for 2012, will you be log booked by then as the cage rules change?, I havent got my head around it yet to know what the differences are.
So As far as I can see you have the additional bars welded in and self certify
Correct me if Im wrong someone and anyone know the implications of next years regulations?

Cheers

JP

[MK1_Oz]

i will get the car log booked this year so that I dont have to worry about the changes (the CAMS website says that pre 2012 cages will continue to be fine - although it didnt specify if there is a grace period or they are indefinitely ok).

If I can find a spare few minutes I will try to ring CAMS. Best to ring local SA office or head office do we think?

[jpayne]

speak to the local guys first, they are whom you need a relationship with first hand
Apparently CAMS have undergone somewhat of a rennaisance over the last 18 months, and are now helpfull. I live in Hope.
Only retrospective regulationis for FIA spec padding as long as your car is logbooked already, as I understand
You will need a pre logbook inspection which will pick up all the missing or errenous parts or configurations.
Ask local CAMS guys about self certification of roll over protection.

cheers,

JP

[gen mk 1rs2000]

while you are at it see what different opinions
the FIA have to CAMS
The reason i say this is
i witnesed a cams officer reject an escort for rally aus that has
only recently run in otago which is an FIA event
because i quote the officer saying
iff you the owner put a double cross brace in the main 34 mm hoop
we will accept that as good as a 38mm main hoop
no paperwork ???????????
my argument to cams was
the car is performing the same activity here as it was in another
country
the trees are just as big here as anywhere!!
his response was its our cams progative to accept
or reject !
while i am at it
what is the go with a car with a historic log book to turn up at a typical club meeting
with alloy cage
but if you turn up in a car without historic log book
you must remove alloy cage & it is ok to run
with NO Roll cage
i would like to see an official response
from the authorities ???????????

[MK1_Oz]

[jpayne]

There is a clause inthe new regs which states acceptance or not of a cage built under other regulations, and does not meet CAMS guidelines or has not an engineers approval an been accepted by CAMS is to the discretion of the scrutineers to accept. Might not be right fair or just but is the rules, we play by rules
Liability and litigation is a bitch

JP

[gen mk 1rs2000]

mk 1 oz
you would be astounded at how
stupidly easy it was to have the cage in the new aston
aproved

[gen mk 1rs2000]

[jpayne]

As I read it Cams, has no interest in the engineering or welding as long as it meets the design guidelines regarding material, geometries and dimensions or in the case of a non-compliant cage design, they are interested in the approving engineers signoff. It’s the owner/driver/presenter who should be most concerned and is of course presenting a car for scrutineering that should be compliant with the rules
The scrutineers are there to ensure the car presented at an event matches the approval documents and is safe. if a weld is presented in a state that is liable to be questioned by a competant person (the scrutineer) then there probably is something amiss.
Scrutineering is a tough Job, rejecting someone’s pride and Joy which has cost them plenty of blood sweat and tears because the builder/owner missed something regarding the rules or is just plain taking the piss with regard to their own, the other competitors, spectators and of course marshals safety.
And in doing the job they are asked to do they get abuse and threats of violence
I remember a well-known motorsport (celebrity) presenting a car in less than satisfactory state, it was rejected twice for the same issue, the scrutineer was threatened and abused so sevearly they passed the car only to have it fail substantially during the race doing substantial damage to the car and the track, only for the scrutineer to then be dragged over the coals because of the incident yet the celebrity walked away scott free ( extreme but true case about 25 years ago)
Cheers,

JP

[MK1_Oz]

now you just know we need names

I will ring CAMS in a minute....

[MK1_Oz]

OK I rang the CAMS hotline. The lady on the other end tells me that I am able to modify the cage registration form that Walker's gave me to show the bars that I have added in myself. She said to initial next to those additional bars. Now I just have to decide whether its worth doing them myself or not........I suspect by the time I buy a notching tool, the steel and give it a go I may as well get the shell trailered back to Lance. My welding and fabrication skills are up to it just not sure about the heart . Will think about it.

[shaunb]

Dude

The basics of this is that although the cage has been fabricated by someone else you are effectively "self certifying it", ie you are saying to cams that you are happy with the workmanship and that you are taking responsibility for it. The paper work the fabricator handed you would basically sets out the design of the cage (as they do have to be to a certain limited number of designs and layouts). So basically you can make an alteration (as long as that is still within the accepted designs - see the cams manual) and alter the form before you lodge it.

You are probably aware there are some issues looming with getting cars registered with 6 point cages and Qld looks to be in the worst position here as we still dont have a proper rally car rego system accepted by DOT. Latest reports is that is getting looked at but they admit they have not got the cage issue sorted. I have not looked to see where you are based but if you are up here I would burn the midnight oil to get the thing through rego if the car is ever going to see the road or be rallied.

Steve K, the acceptance of overseas speced cages has been an issue for a while, cams did change the rules to accept MANZ and similar approved cars but it is always up to the scrutineer to be happy with the work. A scrut can still knock back an approved cage here in Oz if he has an issue with any apparent problems, ie cracks, bad welds etc.

These changes were also designed to cater for Jap built drift cars that come in with some pretty creative cages at times, if you read some of the southern states state council and scrutineering minutes off the cams website you will see they are having a few problems with these and it looks like some scrutineers wont pass these jap cars anymore as they wont put their name to them.

Cheers

Shaun B

Its all fun until someone loses an eye, then its still fun but with less depth perception.





NZthe recent

[MK1_Oz]

I am in SA where we have not be allowed to drive caged cars on teh road for donkeys years (unless under our Dedicated CAMS Rally Car Scheme)

Cheers