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Re: Progress

PostPosted: Sat Oct 27, 2018 10:48 am
by wayovermyhead
g'day folks, I still visit this forum too from time to time. Great to see a little action lately!!!

jpayne wrote:
Still struggling to find a reasonable argument why USA dry sump systems are better than UK ones. lots of blank opinion but no hard and fast evidence or explanation

JP


I agree that the majority of pumps out of the US are better, and here is my explanation.

The major factor that leads to this assertion is the style of oil pump. Pretty much all US pumps use a spur gear/roots style pump/vaccum stage, where as pretty much all pommy pumps use a gerotor style stage. And before anyone has a whinge at that, yes there are exceptions, but this has generally been the rule for a long time.
There are pros and cons to each style but the roots style just moves more air/oil hands down, this makes it much better at creating vacuum and generally performing it's duties. The US pumps are also usually a bit bigger which also helps. Both these factors probably stem from the different styles of engines that pumps like these have been developed with (i.e big drag motors in the US)

The other factor is that when it comes to our motors the pommy options have typically only been from one of two options (titan/pace). I have taken quite a few pumps apart over the past few years and in my opinion, they are just not a particularly well built pump, the tolerances weren't that great, they leak more, the US pumps have O-rings in places the pommy ones don't etc etc, and you generally get AN fittings on US pumps and many pommy ones just have a large barb for a hose and hose clamp! even the Millington uses hoses and clamps on the scavenge stages! Out of all the high performance exquisitely engineered fitting solutions out there, this one baffles me. And yes I know sometimes the simplest solutions are the best. But go and look at any arena in the higher echelons of motorsport, and you won't find a single engine with it's dry sump lines held on with a hose clamp. There's a reason for this.
Without a doubt I have been left with the impression that pumps like Peterson/autoverdi(actually Swedish)/barnes etc were much better made.

Having said all that, The pace/titan options that we compare them all too have been around for a long time. I suspect there is a better quality of pump coming from some of these players now and they are starting to use the roots style stages too.
But like most things, there are many die hard opinions that were formed many years ago, and become less relevant as time goes by and things develop. But having said that, I'd still choose a pump from the US.

And for the record, I use a Dailey engineering pump. And it was custom built to my exact needs, with many custom features you wouldn't find anywhere else. And it's one of the best pumps i've seen.

Llew

Re: Progress

PostPosted: Sat Oct 27, 2018 6:08 pm
by jsa
Thanks for your detailed explantion Llew.

Re: Progress

PostPosted: Sat Oct 27, 2018 8:50 pm
by jpayne
Thanks for that.
so is this a step in the right direction for a UK system.
http://www.burtonpower.com/opi-dry-sump ... idsk1.html

JP

Re: Progress

PostPosted: Sat Nov 03, 2018 7:20 pm
by Danny M
Actually Llew the US pumps are more often ge-rotor type with the older brands like Weaver, Barnes etc sticking with spur gears. But now Peterson have gone over to the rootes type blade pumps. The spur gears don't have anything like the scavenge vacuum of a rotor and a rootes types has the best of them all.
he problem with the UK pumps are they are of poor design and leak as they often have no o rings between stages and the fitting well they are just disgraceful. Also the US pumps have higher volume stages so you don't have the problems with fluid volume at big rev's with large clearances like the pommie pumps and the US pumps pull more vacuum so you can actually slow the pumps down for less drag again

Re: Progress

PostPosted: Sun Nov 04, 2018 7:08 am
by jpayne
Thanks Guys, but anyone have anything to say about the OPI system?
Also, with an external pump, how does the under piston squirters work on a YB?

JP

Re: Progress

PostPosted: Sun Nov 04, 2018 8:17 am
by wayovermyhead
Yes your right Danny, I was just using the spur gear as an example of the differences compared to a geroter. The Roots style is just a variation of a spur gear with a different gear profile, but same pumping principles. And I think your showing your age here a bit Danny :razz: peterson and pretty much all other mainstream US manufacturers have been making either spur or roots style for the best part of the last ten years!

JP, The OPI looks a hell of a lot better on paper/pictures than the other offerings. But, who knows?? try one and find out, or if you want peace of mind as to what your getting go with something like a Peterson or Dailey (the dailey's really are extremely well made)

The oil squirters just feed off the blocks oiling system, no need to feed them direct from the pump if that's what you were thinking?
As for weather the pump will have enough capacity to feed them, it would be very unlikely any decent pump will be not capable, and if you found pressure dropping off at high revs/temp then you can adjust the pump speed to compensate, providing that doesn't lead to cavitation.
Basically pump speed is a trade off between oil flow demand, cavitation and efficiency (you only want to run it as fast as you need)
So it's a totally tunable system. Pretty much every off the shelf pump will cater for all but the most extreme setups as they are all bigger than they need to be. some manufacturers will offer custom sized stages, but they are more suited to huge drag motors with massive oil demands.

Llew

Re: Progress

PostPosted: Sun Nov 04, 2018 8:33 am
by jsa
WRC or YBP oil squirters tap in to the main oil gallery that runs from front to back of block.

Re: Progress

PostPosted: Sun Nov 04, 2018 9:37 am
by jpayne
Thanks guys, are the squirters an engine strip to have machined in?

JP

Re: Progress

PostPosted: Sun Nov 04, 2018 9:49 am
by jsa
It would be difficult partially assembled.

Re: Progress

PostPosted: Sun Nov 04, 2018 7:27 pm
by jpayne
Well that seals that. it can wait till it needs a rebuild in 20 years! Not pulling it apart at this stage.
Thanks Guys
JP

Re: Progress

PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2019 9:38 pm
by jpayne
Well that was painfull, but its done now!
M130 GP-R
CDL3 track
Wiring
Lamda sensor
Cardboard boxes

IMG_20190128_212232.jpg
IMG_20190128_212232.jpg (110.63 KiB) Viewed 482 times


Just need a place to live now! with shed and the build can continue. I will be too old to drive it! but Daughter is alomst 4 so only a few years from trying! Better get myself into gear

JP

Re: Progress

PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2019 10:59 pm
by MK1_Oz
back to Scotties?....... :D

Re: Progress

PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2019 12:17 pm
by jpayne
Pretty much, mate.
Though a house with a decent garage is on the cards rather than the workshop in golden grove. But I did like the workshop!
But it was 35 minutes away every time!
JP