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[ROOT]/includes/functions.php on line 4752: Cannot modify header information - headers already sent by (output started at [ROOT]/includes/functions.php:3887) [phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/functions.php on line 4754: Cannot modify header information - headers already sent by (output started at [ROOT]/includes/functions.php:3887) [phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/functions.php on line 4755: Cannot modify header information - headers already sent by (output started at [ROOT]/includes/functions.php:3887) [phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/functions.php on line 4756: Cannot modify header information - headers already sent by (output started at [ROOT]/includes/functions.php:3887) RS Motorsport :: Classic Speed Restored • View topic - Alloy diff housing flex?
A few thoughts on aluminium diff carriers. I make from castings aluminium and magnesium carriers for the Mazda rotary diffs I've never set up a English axle ally carrier but have handled a couple. The casting doesn't look to be any more substantial than the std iron casing; the wall thickness is about the same and there is none of the necessary extra beefing and buttressing around the caps or the ring flange to help with separation flex from the gear loads. Normally to retain equal strength as iron the aluminium casting would be 40 to 60% thicker. At room temp these carriers would be weaker than the iron items in proportion to the material strength and at the relatively high temps they can run at; well over 250F, they wouldn't be getting any stronger. It might be that Nb/Nc legality aside they are not such a good idea; they may cost power because of the potential poor cw&p mesh. As has been suggested they look to have been made as a lightweight alternative for relatively low power and weight cars
The Nc RX2's are flying and should be running Class C over 3 litre. Back in the day on the road they were as fast as a 202 XU1. They have benefitted enormously from the regs being relaxed to allow bridge porting, Weber 48 IDA,s and the single distributor variation.
The right Escort will be 100 - 120kg lighter than a RX2 and only 30 hp down. I know this because the RX2's that ran 1,2 all weekend at PI 2012 use the same dyno I used to and by that I mean the actual unit not just type.
Both cars have the same wheel and tyre sizes, both cars can add additional suspension components like watts links and they generally run Volvo brakes.
An Escort has a wider track, lower centre of gravity and a massive weight advantage.
The thing is though it's only really PI that runs U3L O3L so at any other given meeting you'll be running against the Mazda's and the Falcon's, Mustang's, Torana's, Monaro's etc. and none of them are 1500 - 2000cc.
The quickest Mazda's are quick because the people running them are putting the effort in to all aspects of the car and continuing to develop them. I don't know of any Nc Escort currently under going the sort of development of the Mazda boys.
I don't agree with the sand bagging that was used to get the bridge ports in but the single dizzy engines would have been allowed at some point on the basis of availability.
The Mazda's are going to get quicker. They ran a 4 barrel carby as standard, 4 chokes, 4 ports, won't be long before someone shows up with a pair of IDA's or DCOE's.
A Mazda costs half what an RS1600 does to build. There is only going to be more of them.
Paul I don't disagree with anything you've said. The Blacks appear to have resources beyond the average NC competitor. As you know the costs for a BD, especially a high revving reliable one, are huge. This also then creats gearbox problems with the three rail where the case breaks.
As for the U/O3L split whilst these races highlight the problem it's a problem no matter what the split. The punter on the fence thinks due to the relatively same size of all the U2L cars and the RX2's that they are the same class. Then wonders why the mazda's are winning as this wasn't the case in the past.
Finally in my opinion historic racing isn't meant to be as competitive as its becoming. The spirit is for the drivers to race the cars and recreate the racing pre 1972. The panel damage and money being spent in my opinion are not in that spirit. But it has clearly changed in that direction which is one of the reasons I chose improved production. Because if you're going to race you may as well do it on a more even playing field, where being competitive isn't something everyone pretends they're not.
how about this for a novel idea ? all the cheating tricks they did in yesteryear be allowed under the current regs ?????????? does that satisfy a genuine c of d ??
Yes Steve my understanding is that a CofD car can run exactly as it was at a particular date. The tricky part is proving that on that weekend of racing it had x and y. It doesn't mean you can run everything that car ever had just what it had on that specific date. The other thing is you can't substitute parts. For example my understanding is that at some stage they jammed a 5th gear in the original housing. You can't run any 5 speed you must run it exactly as it was in the original case. I'm not an expert on CofD so if someone knows better please jump in.
The Black's have a budget of 60K to run all three cars per year.
If the correct parts are bought in the first place and assembled by the right people the running costs of a BD aren't that high.
Gear boxes can give trouble.
I think as the upper levels of motorsport became more professional and technolgy got cheaper it all started to trickle down to club level and it has made it more competitive. Money will never buy talent though.
As for C of D and fudging, no good. One of the Moffat RX-7's had a six speed and everyone involved, except Mof, was prepared to write stat dec's saying that is how the car ran. Cheating is cheating though and it wasn't approved.
There were two 3 rail 5 speeds available in the day a Hewland that was very unreliable and then Jack Knight did one that was better.
As one who has a CofD and is reletively close to the Group C/A process, I can tell you that cheating is cheating whether is was 30 yrs ago or at last weeks race meeting.
The idea of a CofD is that having proved the car is genuine you then pick a competition event and prepare the car as it was at that event, both mechanically and body/livery wise. In a perfect world all cars with CofD's would be detail perfect however money and the desire to win often clouds peoples judgement when it comes to rebuilding a car. I know of cars which have period correct and approved upgrades in the cars now that were not in that actual car in the day.
You can also tell from the lap times which cars are "fat" - yes there are some very good peddlers out there but when a car that it 10 years older than a later model (say a Group C V8 against a Group A V8) blows it away in a straight line, then something is seriously wrong.
Sorry, just one other thing for Steve - CofD's only apply to original cars. They cannot be built from bit & pieces of cars and the bodyshell is considered the cars DNA. Without that and a substantial amount of parts, along with the original logbook and/or an unbroken line of ownership, getting a CofD can be diffucult.
Group N (a,b,c) is different in that it is essentially a category of freshly built replicas where you comply to a set of regulations which are supposed to be sort of historically based. A quick look at the laps times though will tell you that 40+ years of development and some liberal engine freedoms gives you a much faster car. As a result CofD's generally do not apply to this category as few would run an original car with a bunch of present day builds (no offense to anyone who does run Group N).
Hi Paul 60k is alot anyway and I wonder if that includes Errol's "salary". (Off topic: Errol's a great bloke - such a character!).
You're probably right regarding the BDA and I know you've kept David's motor very reliable. The cost is still high and represents a number of rotary rebuilds.
Neville I don't think anyone would begrudge the genuine cars not wishing to run in NC. To be honest group C/A is probably the place for these cars - after all what is the point of competing against the same type of car running under different regs (NC).
Having said that I know John Hadden is re-building one (a rebuild thread would be awesome!) and it would be good to see it flog the rotaries! And lift the profile of NC.
Getting a fair bit off topic I know, but the Blacks cars are very basic in the way of development. They are just driven extremely well. As for budget, I would think any one running the same number of RX2's at the same number of meetings would be spending similar money. It is true that you would spend considerably large amounts of money to build and develop a good RS but I do think that driven well it would be more than competitive against the best RX2's. I believe that with the power they're now making the rotaries are costing a bit to maintain. Properly built, developed and driven an Escort should be right at the pointy end. Ken Hastings had an Escort that his son Glen drove at Sandown years ago and posted a low '26. It was just an average race car, basic suspension, too heavy, reasonable power. The best RX2's are just getting near that now. Look at the time Bargs did in the Escort at winton. I believe it was only fractionally slower than the Mustang and would have had the Escort on the front row. The mini that I diced with at the Island is a C of D car [suposedly ex Peter Manton] that has some bits that are not available to other cars. He was a couple of seconds quicker than the next best Mini. Johns RS should give the chook cookers some real hurry up. Get it out there John to fly the flag. Cheers Peter
Don't worry Peter we're way off topic but it is interesting.
Couple of points. I'm not sure you can describe the Black's cars as basic in development. The truth is the NC regs don't allow for modification that would be obvious. They all have Murray Coote front legs and to get the valving right takes development and $. The motor/gearboxes are in constant development and make good HP. Probably the greatest development you can do is to run regularly, which they do.
The other thing is that Glen Hastings has never done a 26 at Sandown that I am aware of. Hastings did a 27.5 in qualifying and a 27.8 in one of the races. Results here:
Imagine what Bargs could do in Humbles RX2 around Winton!
My point is not that it can't be done just that the two are being unfairly compared. The RX2 has been given too many freedoms and are considerably cheaper to build. I don't like RX2's but if you wanted to be competitive in NC it would be the better car to build.
A properly built, developed and driven Escort can be right at the pointy end. I know that our thing was toward the pointy end on most occasions. I sourced a BDA for that car just so we could be competive outright under 3 litre, which is how it will be presented next time out. Just don't like the idea that mediocre built, developed and driven RX2 will be right there with the escort.
Thanks for all of the information, though we do seem to be off on a tangent ATM. I was personally interested in the alloy housing, but will stay with the iron one. I'll have to get it rebuilt, but I see there are threads about that already. I was also tempted recently by a twin cam engine...but again the potential costs can be larger than I care to spend.